Roots Archives Forum

Ok, so, up front: honestly I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, and we all agree that 70's-'85 (i.e. pre-digi) was the "golden age" of reggae, right?

But.....my experience with a lot of other reggae fans in California, at least,is that there is an almost universal dismissal of post-85 reggae, and in many specific cases I've observed, it was based on what seems to me to be a kind of misplaced snobbery based on a false understanding of jamaican music itself. Sometimes by people who dismissed it all without even giving it a chance.

I'm not accusing anyone here of that, and it mostly makes complete sense to favor this time period, but I feel at least interested to lay it out there and see if anyone's interested to debate it.

Most people around when I was getting into reggae in the early 80's got into these acts first: Bob Marley & The Wailers, Steel Pulse, Third World, Black Uhuru and Burning Spear. They got into these acts after first being mainly fans of rock and rock-type styles of music. They also had a "band" oriented mindset, like "I like the Grateful Dead, Steel Pulse and Burning Spear" -and thought Burning Spear and Black Uhuru were "bands" in the rock sense of the word.
Part of this, I think , was Chris Blackwell's genius in marketing Bob & the Wailers and adding rock guitar leads, etc. He marketed to a specific audience.

These same fans were inspired by Marley's lyrics and "roots reggae" became like a sacred type of music based on the one love type of vibe.

I think that it is far, far more on point to see reggae as a close analogy to american soul and r'n'b,( not rock) that really followed in the same trajectory as black american music. That is, from r'n'b to soul and funk to hip hop. As american music went from soul to funk to hip hop; jamaican music went from roots to early dancehall to ragga.

Yet, many of these people I knew that were into reggae, would get into hip hop, and dig Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre and Wu Tang, but totally turn up their noses and dismiss Beenie Man, Bounty, etc. As if dancehall was some immoral and profane music that was sullying the sacredness of Bob Marley. But hip hop was cool. There was this idea that by following rap's footsteps, reggae was selling itself out.

This is what I find to be complete BS!! (not to mention that rap followed reggae as much as the other way around)

In all time periods, the music coming out of jamaican and american ghettos reflected the reality of their situation. Yes, righteous lyrics are nice and uplifting, but sometimes you just want a nice spliff, a beer or two, some nice females to wine with,and some laid back party vibes right? Why does reggae always have to be so self-righteous. There are some great gun tunes out there; some hilarious slackness, too. I don't have much of a problem with it. Of course, there's a point where it can go overboard.

Now, if you just hate all post-analog music, then, ok, that's your taste. But if you dismiss post- 85 reggae because you have some self-righteous requirement that reggae have roots lyrics, and you fight against slackness and gangsta lyrics in reggae, while listening to hip hop; then you have a meaningless double-standard going on.

Also, since, as I've pointed out before, there are legions of talented roots artists that have been at work for the last 10 to 15 years, like Bushman, Jr. Kelly, Sizzla, Norris Man, Luciano, Garnet Silk,Everton Blender, Richie Spice Capleton, Glen Washington, Duane Stephenson; not to mention the occasional conscious tune by even people like Bounty Killer and Beenie Man, dismissing post-85 music just seems like a mistake to me.

Of course, if you do take the time and get into it, the downside is it's more $$$ to spend!

I have to admit, too: I was a big dancehall and hip hop fan in the nineties. I think there was still a lot of good dancehall up until the last few years. I think most new hip hop is terrible. Now dancehall is kind of emulating this crap hip hop with the auto-tune and stuff, and I can't get in to too much of it anymore either. I hope there's a change for the better soon, but maybe both hip hop and dancehall are at a really low ebb. At least the new roots stuff is still going strong. Sizzla's I-Space from last year was brilliant.

I don't really know what all that means, but there it is.

Listening to the Dancehall Top 10 of 2008 on 1Xtra last night I have to say Mavado (3 entries!) leaves me pretty cold but Nuh Linger - Elephant Man, Pull up Selector - Jimmy and Tarrus Riley and The Mission - Damian and Stephen Marley are all reasons to be cheerful about reggae's current state, IMO anyway...

I agree that there are A LOT of nice tunes made after '85 - until now. Much killer tunes IMO. So yes, we can be cheerful about reggae's current state.
BUT the only thing that changed (for me) is that I cannot listen to a whole album of the artists who made the same killer tunes in this time.
I only like 2/3/4 tunes per album, unlike the 70-85 era. Most albums from that era are very pleasant to listen to throughout the whole album and most of the time I dig every song.
So that is why I define the golden age of reggae: 70-85 era. But it doesn't necessarily mean that when one defines the golden age 70-85 that he doesn't like anything that was released 85+.

That's just my opinion.

I think Leggo is right to a degree with this post 1985 snobbery thing, but I also feel their is a general misconception towards music made post 1985.

I think people tend to categorise nearly all, if not all, of music made after 1985 as digital and, in doing so, making the mistake of classifying the digital and computer sound as one and the same, but it isnt.

There is a wealth of fantastic digital music made after 1985 that still kept the old style reggae sound just adding the digi effect in on the drums. George Phang Power House is one example.

Then their is the Sleng Teng sound which is a fully computerised sound and which is just too far removed from the traditional reggae sound.

Personally this sound is just too much and imo killed the artistry of reggae and, in doing so, making redundant most of the studio musicians who already struggled for a daily living (but I guess thats a whole new topic).

Anyway, I think people do make the mistake of lumping these two styles as one. Personally I dont think anyone should dismiss music made post 1985 but should take the time to investigate what takes their eye and then use their ears to judge each track / album on its own merit.

I made this mistake to start with but have since redeemed myself and have picked up some wonderful albums in the vein of Sugar Minott "Them A Wolf" and Frankie Paul "Hand Cart Man".

Reggae is definately alive post 1985 and their is much good music made in the 1990`s / 2000`s.

Although personnaly I haven`t managed to get past the late 1980`s, but thats just my choice and nothing to do with ignorance.

For me there is still far too much great reggae music from the 1970`s and early 1980`s that I am yet to find and hear. And so this is where I like to concentrate my time and efforts

So I guess its all down to personal taste and preference.

There is a big difference in so called digi reggae.
1984 is when the first drum machines came on the market, reggae was not totally digi there was still musician skills involved and they werre using real instruments over the drum machine.

What changed is when music started being made on computers with the first music software Qbase etc, 1993 onwards, but a lot of people held off from the computer and software for ages cos they couldn`t afford it, so it turned into a rich mans computer music.

Thats why things like `Ruff Neck` Gregory Isaacs music works, Leggo studios and label the early Exterminator label, were still what I call roots music, but in a different style.

What has distroyed reggae music is the computers in that no one is a musician also I`m against digi computer music is that it has put the musicians out of work, what comes around, goes around. Now they`re all worried about digi computer music not selling in our rip off world and consumer market place.

Same with the Hip Hop just using a drum machine and then using real instruments which is now no more its all digi binary zeros and ones join the dots and numbers, and it is lifeless.

What started hip hop was the drum box and the great drum beats TLA Rock - It`s Yours and now they have the same boring drum beats tuned down and all we hear is some no-meaning rapping.

peace

-survival

That's a great point, I definitely agree that70's records tend to be far more listenable as albums. Dancehall and newer stuff seems to have way more filler.

Personally, if I may probably look like a strictly revival, and I am, its was not based on a doctrin. When I started into reggae, I just listenend to records without any idea of the released years, cause I didnt know there had been a "golden era". I really felt crappy the pure digital reggae and was so much astonished to hear from a friend years later that there were people loving especially this reggae and specialised into ealy digi years, paying loads of dunza for it... Thought it was a joke.

I realised later that the 70s and early 80s where particular having been fooled a while with the bands I first went into, like the Gladiators or Israel Vibration, that released instrumental stuff till very late on the European market, which has no link with jamaicas music.

So after a while, realising that all the stuff I loved came from the 70s and early 80s, and that they were unlimited, why then dig in the post 85 tunes when I would find 1 tune of my taste out of 1000 ?

I just cant compare the deepness of sound of a real instrument and 6 different creative brains together, with a computer. I know some people feel something special with the digi sounds, a mood that they cant find with revival sound. I respect that, but dont share it, that's all.

Many digi lovers feel a bit frustrated when speakimg with revival addicts, cause they usually enjoy the revival sound AND the digi sound and feel a continuity, but its not felt the same way by those others who are into instrumental reggae. Ok, I understand, but for me there a giant gap and I cant jump over it yet... But there is no snobism behind. And there are not so many people into revival reggae, that's maybe why all those people meet on international forums and are over represented there.

Don`t Jah mean anything any more.

It comes down to money: Us musicians dont have the money to get all the computer hardware and endless updated software, so its rich mans music with no soul.

All I hear is surport the UK music in the year 2000+ but the best UK reggae was in the 70`s, 80`s and 90`s it`s already been made 1985 Jah Tubbys - Worries In The Dance etc.

I call it middle of the road computer digi tunes.
The computer boffins dont know how to play an instrument.

You cant play drums, you cant play piano, you cant play guitar, you cant play bass, you cant do anything in analogue what you doing in the studio!!

So it might as well be called Drum & Bass it all sounds the same, thats not being a music snob, its just being musical unlike bang bang bang music with rah rah rah vocals. All you need is a computer boffin with enough money to buy into reggae with all the gadgets.

The gap between rich and poor reggae is widening, and so is the culture.

peace

One of things I miss in the protools age is that things seem to sound the same: whereas before you could tell a track cut at Channel One, Black Ark, or Joe Gibbs, you can't (or at least I can't)these days. There was much more variety in sounds before, which made things more interesting IMO.

Actually there are many groups making good instrumental roots, with real musicians. Clinton Fearon, The Crucialites, Black Culture, Roots Covenant (a new youtube discovery for me!), The Debonaires, Groundation, Jazz Jamaica (not roots, ok), Wareika Hill, and many many more... In Spain the situation invites optimism: Lone Ark, We & Dem, Hotdrop, Jahsta, The Oldians, Flight 404, The Granadians (these last three more new-early reggae/rocksteady, like dutches Rude Rich & The High Notes).........and more!!!

Roots reggae planted seeds around the whole world: South America, EEUU, Europe, etc etc... and now in China!!